Proposed Tax Plan for Washington State Ferries
Governor Gregoire wants to establish a new ferry taxing district that would include Clallam and Jefferson Counties and five other Western Washington counties.
Some district board members would be elected and some would be appointed by the governor.
Washington State's ferry system is the largest in the country, but has lost more than $1.2 billion in revenue since 1999.
Some district board members would be elected and some would be appointed by the governor.
Washington State's ferry system is the largest in the country, but has lost more than $1.2 billion in revenue since 1999.
posted by Tom Harper at 7:48 PM
73 Comments:
Perfect! Shed the historic obligations, and turn them over to the locals.
This is what the city has been doing in recent years. For how many years did the city run the pool? After wasting millions on stupid projects like the Gateway, the city realized it didn't have enough to do both.
Did they bail out on the projects they couldn't afford? Hell no! They just shifted it over to the citizens to tax themselves, above and beyond what they used to pay to have the pool.( Your taxes did not go down, once the city stopped spending money to operate it, did they?)
Same with the school levies.
And now, the ferry system. "Let the users determine what level of service they want to pay for". Right, and the taxing district will include all the states and countries the visitors to the area come from.
And you think the state is going to buy the Coho? Or, with the state bailing out on its' money losing ferries, a private entity will buy it?
No, a new taxing district in Port Angeles will be formed.
the root cause of the problem is the ferry workers union.
The average pay of a ferry worker....... hold on to your hat.......$90K a year not counting benifits.
Don't blame it on Tim Eyman, blame it on the fact the state continues to negotiate with the union. They should fire them all and hire new for half.
I bet thousands would stand in line for those jobs.
"They should fire them all and hire new for half.
I bet thousands would stand in line for those jobs."
Ah, yes. We return to the "Race to the bottom".
Why stop at half the wage? Why not a quarter? Wouldn't that save taxpayer even more money?
And, after a year or two, fire those workers, and offer their jobs at a quarter of what you paid them.
Within a few years, we can be just like the undeveloped countries our companies have moved to, for cheap labor. You know the ones, where people live 10 to a room?
Com'on, Capitalist. No guts, no glory!
Anon 9:40
So, you think the Government is doing a good job managing our money by paying people $90k a year, with a pention plan, and free health care, for parking cars?
The coho makes a profit by managing it's company fairly.
The state does not care how much money it spends, when they run out they just take more from the taxpayers.
Cut out the slackers by abolishing the minimum wage!
"So, you think the Government is doing a good job managing our money by paying people $90k a year, with a pention plan, and free health care, for parking cars?"
(Spelling, spelling, spelling!)
This IS interesting. If you look into this, you will see that the salaries of the CEOs of private companies have been rising dramatically in the last year or so. One report cites a study that shows top CEOs make the entire annual salary of the average worker within the first 6 hours of the first workday of the year!
That is not excessive, right?
But teachers, policeman, library workers and others are vilified for making a wage that allows them to participate in Americas' consumerist society.
Where do you think the money comes from to buy new cars, new clothes, new electronics, new homes, etc? The things that create jobs, and sustain our local economies? From those making minimum wages or less?
Recent news clips state 1 in 7 Americans are on food stamps. Where do you think that money is coming from? How much money do you think these food stamp recipients are paying into the system, in income and sales taxes?
This IS interesting. If you look into this, you will see that the salaries of the CEOs of private companies have been rising dramatically in the last year or so. One report cites a study that shows top CEOs make the entire annual salary of the average worker within the first 6 hours of the first workday of the year!
That is not excessive, right?
You forget on thing, Private companies do not live off taxpayer dollars
You are ignoring the facts
Don't blame it on Tim Eyman
Or the dumb fucks that wanted the toll removed from the Hood Canal Bridge. Don’t blame the stupid asses who have been voting for years now to lower their own taxes regardless of consequence. Don’t blame the greasy republican weasels who have (with your blessing) been selling your country to the highest bidder ever since the great traitor Regan began the trend on a national level in 1980.
Nah, blame the unions...
"The coho makes a profit by managing it's company fairly."
The Coho is owned by Oregon State University. Do you KNOW that it makes a profit? It's business has been declining for years now.
Reagan was a "GOD"
Ronnie Reagan was a moron.
Grow up and stop worshipping these tin doGs.
Anon 11:17 AM, January 08, 2011 said:
"You forget on thing, Private companies do not live off taxpayer dollars
You are ignoring the facts"
Besides the FACT that you don't seem to be smart enough to spell or communicate properly, you also show your ignorance, once again, with your comment: "..Private companies do not live off taxpayer dollars".
How can you write this stuff, seriously?
Here in Port Angeles, we're watching the Nippon "biomass" project being proposed, dependent upon many millions of taxpayer dollars. How many taxpayer dollars were used as "incentives" to lure the Hardwood mill? How many subsidies do the nation's factory farms get each year? Boeing? The munitions industries? The nation's car companies and financial institutions got how many millions and billions of taxpayer funds in the last couple of years to keep them afloat? The pharmaceutical companies? Hospitals?
I won't bother going into more detail. Clearly you don't understand what is going on in this country. You're just happy to spout empty rhetoric.
@WTF
Why should we punish americans by taxing companies and products, and making people pay to use roads that they paid for with their taxes! (like tolling a bridge?!?!)
How does that make any sense?!?!
When all the liberals do with the taxes are give it to the high school drop outs!!!! Yeah welfare, why don't we just allow failure in this country...
If anybody actually knew the truth behind a Union, they would be disgusted... a true "job creator" no matter what their political views are would understand that the Union is a JOKE
Anon 9:47
You clearly suffer from "ostrich disease"
We don't want success or employment in any form whether it be on the national or local level.
Nippon, Hardwood, ACTI, Pen-Ply, Westport - these businesses are successful and employ people, so they have to go. Besides, those wage-earners can live off the charity of perpetual unemployment bennies!
We don't need the Gateway, either. What a waste! That dark, dangerous corner on Oak Street was good enough. And that multi-level parking area - why that will just attract people to downtown where they'll spend money and keep local businesses and their employees going. We certainly don't want that!
No, we want these wage-earner types out of here and the ugly businesses that employ them, too. Get out of here Nippon, Pen-Ply, Hardwood, ACTI and Westport! We want to restore the historic waterfront and then give it back to the local tribes! Get out of here downtown businesses! We want to convert all those properties in low-rent/no-rent housing for the mental whackjobs.
No success in Port Angeles!
lWhy should we punish americans by taxing companies and products, and making people pay to use roads that they paid for with their taxes! (like tolling a bridge?!?!)
Boy howdy you are one stupid fuck. The bridge was paid for by tolls-and when it was paid for the toll was used (at a buck a car) to pay for the ferries. ..some genius just like you decided that was improper and took it to court, and the ferries lost that funding. Next, some blowhard asswipe(just like you) decided we needed to pay a set rate for our car tabs (same tax if you have a '73 Toyota or a 300,000 dollar motor home) and the DOT lost THAT funding. So now you're bitching and whining about a problem you created -which for a conservative piece of shit like you is par for the course.
WTF: You'll have to dial down the name-calling a bit.
"these businesses are successful and employ people... We don't need the Gateway, either. What a waste!"
You mean like pulling eminent domain to seize a PRIVATE parking area so the taxpayers can foot the very expensive bill for the city to get in the parking business? You mean like that kind of "businesses must go"?
Yeah it looks better there, but doesn't that leave a sour taste in your mouth? $14 million of taxpayer money spent so the city can replace an existing business?
"You clearly suffer from "ostrich disease""
What does that mean? Taxpayers foot the bill for businesses all the time, from a simple tax break to a "local" company that promptly turns around to the Troubled Asset Relief Program on the extreme end. Look at Sequim for example, they just had to up their tax rate on consumers to pay for the infrastructure for all the box stores coming in there.
This is why I, as a conservative, don't care for Republicans anymore. They're too busy shouting "liberals suck!" to have any sort of grasp on reality.
WTF: You'll have to dial down the name-calling a bit.
Yo, Tom, help me out here...apparently its ok to slander and malign people by name on this site, accusing them of all manner illegal and unethical conduct, but no “name calling” Well, unless it’s a name like socialist, leftist, dirty hippie, etc… that’s ok- right? All ok, but no asswipe, stupid, (and don’t say Fuck) –right? Just trying to comply with what seem to me to be somewhat variable guidlines.
"Nippon, Hardwood, ACTI, Pen-Ply, Westport - these businesses are successful and employ people, so they have to go. Besides, those wage-earners can live off the charity of perpetual unemployment bennies!"
Yes, successful and employ people BECAUSE they are supported by taxpayers' money. The "charity" of the taxpayers.
I don't see how you can have it both ways in your "argument". It is bad that any individuals get taxpayer assistance for ANYTHING, but at the same time, you defend all the taxpayer assistance for all the privately owned businesses.
Oh, that's right. I'm assuming you have any real thinking skills. Sorry. Perhaps you might avail yourself of the taxpayer funded school system.
To WTF:
But again, you're wrong. If a bridge is payed for by the tax payers $, why should it be tolled? Patty Murray had the idea to raise the toll on the new bridge and toll the old bridge as well?!
How does that work?
PS- I love how you didnt address the wellfare shout out, I mean what do you want to do with all those taxes? Last I checked, the liberals were in fact actually giving it to the "drop outs" as stated earlier.
Wellfare and now healthcare.
WTF: You have a point. The guidelines are sort of "variable" I guess. I'm just trying to alienate as few readers as possible. Most of the complaints seem to be generated by swear words and off-color jokes (which is why BBC has so many comments deleted).
But again, you're wrong. If a bridge is payed for by the tax payers $, why should it be tolled? Patty Murray had the idea to raise the toll on the new bridge and toll the old bridge as well?!
You need to find somebody to read and explain that first post of mine to you. I can’t “dumb it down” any further than I already have.
PS- I love how you didnt address the wellfare shout out, I mean what do you want to do with all those taxes? Last I checked, the liberals were in fact actually giving it to the "drop outs" as stated earlier.
can't respond to every moronic posst placed here by teabaggers. hell, that would be a full time job.
WTF: You have a point. The guidelines are sort of "variable" I guess. I'm just trying to alienate as few readers as possible. Most of the complaints seem to be generated by swear words and off-color jokes (which is why BBC has so many comments deleted).
So in other words we need to tone down our rhetoric because these teabag morons can dish it out but can’t take it- right? Now, I don't know about you, but I find having my intelligence or patriotism questioned by these Nazi retards to be far more "obscene" and alienating than anything I've ever written here. But in the interest of keeping these morons coming back,so i can beat them up and make fools of them, I’ll try to cool it a bit.
"... apparently its ok to slander and malign people by name on this site, accusing them of all manner illegal and unethical conduct ..."
yeah it's ok if you're talking about Edna, Karen, larry, Dick Piling or Don Perry, not to mention any successful business here in town. yeah, that's ok, cos you two-faced Libs talk about respect and tolerance and then slander anyone you don't like at the drop of a hat. "Nazi retards" that's another good one!
Are the gloves off now WTF? I can never tell.
yeah it's ok if you're talking about Edna, Karen, larry, Dick Piling or Don Perry, not to mention any successful business here in town. yeah, that's ok, cos you two-faced Libs talk about respect and tolerance and then slander anyone you don't like at the drop of a hat. "Nazi retards" that's another good one!
Are the gloves off now WTF? I can never tell.
Well, hey there, Dopey, how are you? You ‘ll notice in my post, that I didn’t mention Max or Edna…if you can stop cry babying long enough to think about what I was saying, you would realize that I’m not bitching-I’m simply claiming the right to respond in kind. As far as gloves are concerned, I would only use them if I had to touch you physically. Ewwwww. Other than that they’re off.
WTF?.. Good to see you back here. These teabaggers get pretty boring with their circular logic.
This has nothing to do with Taxes, the State Ferry System, etc. etc.
It does have everything to do with what is happening in America today. From our small town, to Tucson, to our nations capitol:
In the words of Rev Wright,
GOD DAM AMERICA!!!!!
"...apparently its ok to slander and malign people by name on this site, accusing them of all manner illegal and unethical conduct ..."
Read that part of your statement again, nitwit, and then tell your leftist pals to knock off slandering Larry, Karen and Edna.
This a "community" board, you tool, not a hippie-dippie, tax-and-spend utopia in the planning stages board. Though, admittedly, that's what it started out being. Too bad Tom decided to publicize the board all around town, eh? Oh well, we have as much right to post here as you ex-Berkely drop outs have.
You're a real piece of work, WTF. Arrogant, rude, foul-mouthed and utterly stupid. You're really showing everyone what the leftists in this town are really like. Keep it up!
Who loves ya, WTF?
Read that part of your statement again, nitwit, and then tell your leftist pals to knock off slandering Larry, Karen and Edna.
To which I'll reply with an earlier post that you, apparently, were too thick to get:
You ‘ll notice in my post, that I didn’t mention Max or Edna…if you can stop cry babying long enough to think about what I was saying, you would realize that I’m not bitching-I’m simply claiming the right to respond in kind.
This a "community" board, you tool, not a hippie-dippie, tax-and-spend utopia in the planning stages board. Though, admittedly, that's what it started out being. Too bad Tom decided to publicize the board all around town, eh? Oh well, we have as much right to post here as you ex-Berkely drop outs have.
Nobody's arguing your "right to post" Only don't expect to write your crazy shit without me or somebody else pointing out what an utter ass you are.
You're a real piece of work, WTF. Arrogant, rude, foul-mouthed and utterly stupid. You're really showing everyone what the leftists in this town are really like. Keep it up!
Coming from you that are more of a joke than an insult. Imagine how awful I’d feel if someone I respected posted that.
HA what goes around comes around, I'm pretty sure conservatives could say the same things to liberals...
We take care of people who dropped out of high school? WHAT THE HELL!
We shoot down small business to save a so-called "burial ground"! WHAT THE HELL!
We voted for a governor who literally stated taxes were NOT going to go up on Kiro7, and guess what, THEY DID! WHAT THE HELL!
hmm somthing smells odd here...
"PS- I love how you didnt address the wellfare shout out, I mean what do you want to do with all those taxes? Last I checked, the liberals were in fact actually giving it to the "drop outs" as stated earlier."
Glad to see you didn't bother to include the scale and scope of taxpayer funding for private businesses here in Port Angeles, in Washington state, and throughout the nation.
How many billions of our taxes go to private businesses, directly and indirectly? I'll wait for you to provide that list.
But, I won't hold my breath.
HA what goes around comes around, I'm pretty sure conservatives could say the same things to liberals...
We take care of people who dropped out of high school? WHAT THE HELL!
The vast majority of people on welfare are children. Your dishonest assesment of the situation is only an excuse to pretend you're not stealing food from babies mouths.
We shoot down small business to save a so-called "burial ground"! WHAT THE HELL!
Actually Officials in PA lied like hell about the presence of these artifacts and were found out and shut down...but why let facts get in the way of your argument, right?
We voted for a governor who literally stated taxes were NOT going to go up on Kiro7, and guess what, THEY DID! WHAT THE HELL!
Now was tht promise before or after the republicans crashed the economy with fake tax cuts and phony wars? Just asking is all.
hmm somthing smells odd here...
That funny looking thing in your bathroom next to the toilet is called a bath tub. Check it out - that ought to take care of those odd smells.
Poor Libs! You had to drag WTF out from under some slimey rock. You must be really desperate.
These past few days of harsh comments here have underscored the reasons for my disgust with what passes for political discourse in our country over the past several years. Nobody is FOR something anymore. If the Dem's were to propose that the sun come up in the morning, the Repub's would be against it! AND VICE VERSA! It used to be only on the National level, but no more. Look back into these blogs. Almost every commenter is against it (whatever "it" is)! Spewing hate-filled, foul-mouthed, insults, instead of thoughtful commentary. WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS! Thoughtful & polite debate helps to clarify, and convince, hateful insults only serve to entrench more deeply.
Anon 8:04 said:
"Spewing hate-filled, foul-mouthed, insults, instead of thoughtful commentary."
I agree with you. And, in an odd way, I also agree with WTF? in their reply to Tom on this.
As one that has tried for months to engage in the discussion and exploration of ideas, I have seen how one person almost always derails all thoughtful exchanges with insulting comments.
One person? Yes, look at the comments made, the spelling/grammar skills displayed, the types of words used, etc. Within a few posts, this same person has dragged the threads down to being about "libs", "dirty, smelly hippies", "socialists", etc. No matter what the topic originally is about. And, with a similar type of user names.
So, as WTF? correctly points out, this person is happy while THEY continually trash talk and insult everyone without provocation, for many months now, but cries foul when it is responded to in kind.
Personally, I'm interested in what ideas and thoughts people have. Again, at least WTF? actually responds to the facts of issues. The other person avoids the issues, and just hurls insults. Really boring.
Interestingly, this topic is now in the national/international news and forums in response to the shootings in Tuscon. The recent trend to use highly polarized, angry, accusatory rhetoric, and the repercussions of that. Fox "News" popularized the tactic, and it certainly has found a constituency!
(Thanks, Tom, for enduring and providing..)
Thoughtful & polite debate helps to clarify, and convince, hateful insults only serve to entrench more deeply.
You mean the sort of civil, bipartisan approach attempted by presidents Carter, Clinton, and Obama? Gee that worked so well for them.
what passes for political discourse in our country over the past several years.
Well, except that uncivil combative politics has been a major part of our American heritage since the very beginning ... for example, the vicious debates and dirty tricks that went on between Jefferson and Adams.
We can debate (civilly, of course) right up to the point that the fascists march us off to the death camps, or we can resist with everything we've got. Listen, these folks are putting crosshairs on senators they don't agree with and inciting them to "reload". In FOX news, they have created a propaganda machine to rival Goebbels'. So you can disapprove of my language and deportment all day long-you'll still end up with a tattoo on your arm and a room with a nice view of the ovens...
Wait a second WTF?
What fake tax cuts, when Bush was in office, I sure made a hell of alot more money than when Obama came in office??? (10-20k more in my pocket b4 Obama)
Now wait a minute...you were just shooting down the Bush tax cuts, odds are you don't make enough money to deserve a tax cut.
Yes I said it, you don't deserve a tax cut, 90% of the taxes in this country come from 10% of the people.
As stated before, I understand some people need wellfare, must a simple 5 minute drug test be too much to ask?
And don't get me started on Gregoire... Washington has been a shitty economy for years to come AND YOU KNOW THAT. Stats don't lie.
What color has our state been the past several terms???
"So you can disapprove of my language and deportment all day long-you'll still end up with a tattoo on your arm and a room with a nice view of the ovens..."
LOL! Well, I'm not so sure the US will resort to the ovens any time soon. But, it is easy to see the efforts to try to take America back to the 50s with the comments posted right here in Port Angeles!
The attempts to insult and use "socialism" as a slur made me think of Joe McCarthy.
It would be nice to think America has moved forward after all these years, but the racist attacks against Obama clearly show not much really has.
It just looks different.
What fake tax cuts, when Bush was in office, I sure made a hell of alot more money than when Obama came in office??? (10-20k more in my pocket b4 Obama)
Considering the mess left by Mr. Bush, it a wonder anybody's making any money at all. I noticed while you were comparing administrations, you failed to mention Mr. Clinton's. Boy those budget surpluses were sure a bitch... In fact, I did well enough to retire 25 years early. I make enough in tax free investment earnings to pretty much do whatever I want, thanks to fake tax cuts. See, when I say fake, I mean I don’t need 'em, And neither do you. And neither does a big assed corporation. It’s your own stupid prejudice about liberals and who we must be that makes you think we’re all poverty stricken hippies. And it’s your own stupid greed that makes you think that tax cuts are more important than what sort of country you live in.
As stated before, I understand some people need wellfare, must a simple 5 minute drug test be too much to ask?
As a matter of fact, it is. Not to mention stupid. It’s far more cost effective to give addicts welfare and free treatment than it is to keep them in prison. And you already know this, and you use this line of reasoning to take up space.
And don't get me started on Gregoire... Washington has been a shitty economy for years to come AND YOU KNOW THAT. Stats don't lie.
What color has our state been the past several terms???
And yet you live here don’tcha Einstein? And you know why. It’s because liberal states ALWAYS provide a better quality of life. And you want that. You just don’t want to pay for your share of it.
I'm seeing no difference between Bush and Obama -- not in theory, not in execution, not in style (with the exception that Obama sounds smarter when he lets words fly out of his mouth).
When are you political types going to figure out that it's not the President who's running things -- it's the big multi-national corporations who are pulling all the strings. Who do you think owns our propaganda media machines? Who do you think writes the bills that keep getting passed in our congress and senate which give benefits to big business and slam small business? Who do you think is getting all the tax breaks and all the government $$. Yep, they suck it out of our pocket, and hand it right over to the big corporations, while the corporations suck us dry, too. Since when did the credit cards start charging whatever the hell they wanted in interest (now, with the recent "credit card fairness bill" as much as 70%). Since when are there student loans than can NEVER BE DISCHARGED -- not by bankruptcy, not by catastrophic circumstances, and soon, not even by death (the debt will be inherited, or fall back to the parents). Since WHEN do we have zero say in anything that is done?
Republican Democrat -- it's all a load of crap you've been fed, just like the 900% increase in your health insurance (in the last decade) while the average wage has declined. The "rich" aren't people making $200,000 a year, it's the very few people making $20,000,000 and more a year (some of which might be your senator and congressman!!)
No, no go ahead -- keep labeling your neighbor Liberal/Conservative, Republican/Democrat. It's dividing us, and it's parroting messages that they WANT YOU TO SAY.
In the words of one of the most famous propaganda experts the world has ever seen "Keep telling people the message long enough, and they will believe it". Try listening to something other than the media parrots.
Or, get used to: Dance monkey.
Republican Democrat -- it's all a load of crap you've been fed
You might try comparing economic statistics for Republican and Democratic administrations over the last 50 years or so. Look at HUD stats on homelessness during the Carter and Regan years. Try to find a "conservative" city to compare to Seattle or San Francisco.(business climate, quality of life, etc.)
Educate youself, son. You'll see the "load of crap" is the silly idea that somehow the Dems are "just as bad" as the Pubs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the dems are perfect. I mam saying that Liberal Democracy is far superior to Fascist Christian Capitalism...
"No, no go ahead -- keep labeling your neighbor Liberal/Conservative, Republican/Democrat. It's dividing us, and it's parroting messages that they WANT YOU TO SAY."
Yes, I agree with you, but.
Just for a local example, let's look at Kenmore Air (as it is in todays' paper). I don't think we will view Kenmore as a major player in the world economic systems. Here it is, being propped up by ongoing taxpayer bail outs and subsidies. The city and county gave them money. The story speaks of another $1 million from the Feds. The state probably kicked in money somehow.
Why? So that Port Angeles doesn't shrivel up and blow away faster than it already is.
(People think that towns/cities somehow always grow. But that is not true. There are many major cities throughout the US that have huge tracts of decrepit buildings, ghosts of once prosperous and vibrant communities.)
The corporations that you speak of only care about one thing. Money. And towards that, "market share". Now that India, Indonesia and China are the "emerging markets", these corporations are flocking to those countries, leaving the US to .. well, they just don't care.
They leave behind the Wal-Marts and such to vacuum up what ever they can from the ever increasingly poor population.
They don't care who is elected. It doesn't matter to them. They only care about "market share".
Have the latest "Smart phone" with that expensive wireless contract? So you can chat away on Facebook?
Great.
The corporations that you speak of only care about one thing. Money. And towards that, "market share". Now that India, Indonesia and China are the "emerging markets", these corporations are flocking to those countries, leaving the US to .. well, they just don't care.
They leave behind the Wal-Marts and such to vacuum up what ever they can from the ever increasingly poor population.
They don't care who is elected. It doesn't matter to them. They only care about "market share".
Have the latest "Smart phone" with that expensive wireless contract? So you can chat away on Facebook?
Great.
No disagreement there. Same as it been since the freaking Roman Empire and before. So maybe we should all eat worms and die its hopeless. We can’t seem to figure out how to run our respective “empires”, and make all our cool viaducts and coliseums and roads and moon landings without screwing a bunch of people over and killing them and stealing their land and shit. Well, until the Magna Carta and the Age of Reason and the Constitution of the United States. It’s been a slow climb out of the dung heap with miles left to go but what are ya gonna do? Piss and moan about a smart phone…didn’t some corporation make the keyboard your typing on, Sport? See we need the corporations. They provide the “Fire” in our economy. And we need taxes and regulations and laws because they are the” Stove and Damper System” that keeps us from burning down the house. Round about 1980, the Republicans decided to simply build a fire in the living room and start tearing the siding off the house. The Democrats at least burnt in the stove. Problem is, NOBODY IS CHOPPING ANY WOOD. So back to eating worms? I hardly think so. Instead of thinking about the future. Think about the past. How did we beat the Trusts? How did the American Labor Movement force the corporations to finance the creation of the American middle class? How did the American Negro force the rest of us into understanding they were done taking shit? How does this stuff happen? Is it magic?
"Problem is, NOBODY IS CHOPPING ANY WOOD. So back to eating worms? I hardly think so."
I agree. I don't think it is about "giving up", or about giving my power over to anyone else.
But, I do recognize that getting people in Port Angeles to organize is a tough row.
WTF, how did the labor unions and trust busting happen?
Well, that was when we had a clean food supply and 50% of the population wasn't so damn fat from eating the frankenfoods that they could actually GET out of their chairs and walk around the block. That was before we had Prozac, and other chill-out pills, and when we had an education system that worked.
Yeah, we weren't manageable. But, since the 50's it has been steady decline -- junk up the schools with meaningless nonsense, load up the food with empty calories and no nutrition, convince a nation that prescription drugs are the ONLY way to go (while still fighting a faux "war on drugs")but don't drink booze (or you get rowdy).
Friend, who's going to fight...who can you get to care. A handful of us, and we're all online and probably traceable, and jail-able. See you in the Gulag.
"How does this stuff happen? Is it magic?"
In other communities I've lived in, over the years, community wide "visioning" workshops were undertaken when things got too out of control.
Now, I did attend the ones that were held here, in Port Angeles 5 years ago or so. The recent AIA efforts are similar.
But, the reason that the community visioning exercises haven't really worked in Port Angeles is that the preliminary work was not done.
As is argued correctly about putting controversial issues to a vote of the people, without education and discussion BEFORE that vote, what are the people voting on? Ignorant or misinformed perceptions? Every one agrees an informed electorate results in better decisions.
And so it is with a community visioning process. The community needs to be engaged long before the workshops are held. People need to know why they are important, and what can reasonably be expected.
But this is not the first step to engagement.
Most every time Port Angeles holds any form of community review, the same small group of folks with economic self interest show up. And, the same small group of "others" show up, too. Everyone says the same things they've said for years.
One group wants "industry" as the focus for Port Angeles, the other wants some incorporation of the natural attributes of the area. We saw this most recently with HarborWorks.
And, if you followed that project very closely, you saw how "the powers that be" (including the PoPA) did everything in their ability to direct that property for waterfront industrial use.
Others wanted the property to highlight other uses. The city wanted it for a "tank o' crap", which it got. Now, with that "vision", what other projects will locate next to a huge tank o' crap?
I bring this up to suggest that a LOT of people in Port Angeles have given up. A LOT of people in Port Angeles don't participate in any planning or city activities, because they believe "the city" is going to do what it wants, anyways.
They believe this for good reason. Look what happened after hundreds and thousands of people signed the fluoride petitions. Did the city recognize that a LOT of the residents wanted to vote on the issue, and do what it could to encourage their participation in Democracy?
No. "The city" used taxpayer funds to do everything it could to thwart and block the residents' efforts.
"Ya can't fight city hall", "They use your own tax money against you". These were the take-away messages. Why bother to try to change anything, or voice an opinion.
THIS is the first thing to address in Port Angeles. The people have to see, and believe their views will be heard, and seriously considered. Nothing will change in Port Angeles until this is addressed.
But, I do recognize that getting people in Port Angeles to organize is a tough row.
Is it?
Why isn’t Karen Rodgers still on the city council?
What happened to the Harborworks project?
How did Edna Peterson, with the support of Republicans and business interests, lose to a nobody with a funny name?
Why, after our gutless city council abandoned it, is the pool still open?
Despite the inability of the federal government to maintain its own holdings in the park, the ridge road is open…why?
Even with our stupid and cowardly hometown “newspaper”, the undue influence of the local real estate and downtown interests, not to mention the best efforts local Republicans, the “will of the people “ won out in each case. How come?
Could it be these pikers are only successful when they meet no resistance? Could it be that they’re all just smoke and hot air? Look at his blog. Do you see how they just shrivel up the minute you offer even a taste of their own medicine?
Rather than “organizing” the entire population, maybe we should be” organizing” each other. We need to find a tavern where we can meet and “talk a little treason”. Hey, it worked for our founding fathers.
Anonymous 9:19 AM, January 12, 2011
Thank You...
As always, you make compelling points.
"Look at his blog. Do you see how they just shrivel up the minute you offer even a taste of their own medicine?"
I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that Tom had "filtered" out that annoying person. But, you are right. They do not stand up to critical review, because they don't stand for anything.
"Rather than “organizing” the entire population, maybe we should be” organizing” each other. We need to find a tavern where we can meet and “talk a little treason”. Hey, it worked for our founding fathers."
Hmmm. Interesting thought. Makes me wonder who would show up.
Well, that was when we had a clean food supply and 50% of the population wasn't so damn fat from eating the frankenfoods that they could actually GET out of their chairs and walk around the block. That was before we had Prozac, and other chill-out pills, and when we had an education system that worked
Actually, at the dawn of the 20th century, fewer than fifty percent of the working class population even attended school beyond the sixth grade. No, they didn’t have Prozac but they did have laudanum (liquid morphine), cocaine, and ether, which along with alcohol, was used quite liberally by the population. (And encouraged by “the haves” as a means of control.) No junk food, but better than half the working poor of the period suffered from malnutrition and the developmental problems associated with it.
‘Twas ever thus, my man, and yet…
The fact is there was never, EVER, any “Good Old Days”
Ask yourself who profits when the population believes nothing can be done, that it’s all hopeless?
But, you are right. They do not stand up to critical review, because they don't stand for anything.
"they'll be back,Luke,and in greater number"
"they'll be back,Luke,and in greater number"
Dude! I was at the Port Angeles Planning Committee meeting this evening. Wow, you wouldn't believe what is going on.
These people got up and talked about the sewage stuff.. the overflows... and the city guys just talked in circles.
No wonder we're so screwed.
what Tom NEEDS to do is set up a Port Angeles Online facebook page, and call for a meet-up.
I'd be there...let's get a beer.
"How did the American Negro force the rest of us into understanding they were done taking shit?"
By economic means. World War II created a viable, affluent African-American middle class. Factories opened up and proliferated from 1939 -1940 and, as we entered the war and factory workers went into the military, those jobs were filled by African-Americans. These new jobs created a situation where they could afford to buy their own cars and open their own businesses. Inevitably, the Civil Rights movement was a creation of this new moneyed class that could assert itself and could effectively boycott bus lines and carpool.
As for the Anti-Trust measures that were enacted in the early 20th Century, this is more complicated but it stems from a series of economic crashes and recessions that occured during the 1890s and early 1900s coupled with a very violent revolutionary fervor among elements of the working classes. The wealthy classes, in order to preserve their system, were forced to accept some limitations or risk outright overthrow.
I was at the Port Angeles Planning Committee meeting this evening. Wow, you wouldn't believe what is going on.
Oh yes I would...
... and the city guys just talked in circles.
Like politicians, real estate agents, human resouces managers,etc..this is their function. To talk shit until its time to put the screws to you.
"what Tom NEEDS to do is set up a Port Angeles Online facebook page, and call for a meet-up.
I'd be there...let's get a beer."
Why set up a facebook page, when we already are here?
We can arrange a meeting of "The Reason for Treason" via this forum, if we wanted to. Each wear a red carnation, or something.. and show up at so-and-so tavern, at such-and-such time.
We can arrange a meeting of "The Reason for Treason" via this forum, if we wanted to. Each wear a red carnation, or something.. and show up at so-and-so tavern, at such-and-such time.
WE don't really need the carnation- just pick the people who aren't wearing swastika arm bands...
“Reason for treason” excellent!!
But before we get too kooky- Let’s remember the French, American, and Irish wars for independence all began in taverns and coffee houses.
"WE don't really need the carnation- just pick the people who aren't wearing swastika arm bands..."
Hehehe.. Pretty funny!
Well, I'm not in a big hurry, but I do sense that the timing may be pretty good about now. The residents of the area are really getting screwed by a variety of reasons, one of the most glaring being that huge sewer/overflow project. It has resulted in the biggest city budget, ever. Translates into higher taxes for all. Why? Because the old guard has manipulated people who don't understand the details. I see someone else brought this up, elsewhere on this blog.
But, I AM interested in meeting/talking if it doesn't turn into a weird scene.
"The Reason for Treason".
Hehehe
Inevitably, the Civil Rights movement was a creation of this new moneyed class that could assert itself and could effectively boycott bus lines and carpool.
A page out of Whitey's history book, for sure but hardly accurate.
There were plenty of middle-class blacks prior to WWII- see: Adam Clayton Powell, "Strivers Row" etc.
Re: the 1955 Alabama boycott, the vast majority of car pool drivers and cars were supplied by black churches- not affluent blacks created by Whitey’s economic boom.
These theories persist primarily because whites like to think they had something to do with it.
My original question however was "How did the American Negro force the rest of us into understanding they were done taking shit?" and you did in fact provide the answer (kinda) in your discussion of the trusts. It was the threat of a very violent revolutionary fervor
In essence, whites were so terrified of Malcolm X, that they were happy to embrace Martin Luther King.
My long winded point is this: the only way to stop getting shit from our oppressors is to STOP TAKING SHIT FROM OUR OPPRESSORS.
It occurs to me as I read over this stuff that I sound like a preachy-assed know it all. Sorry about that. Part of it is because I am a Snide, Sarcastic, sort. But part of this is because it’s not in person. There are a lot more bug-eyed hand gestures, funny voices and scatological references. Enough so that it would be plain that I don’t really take me too seriously. Please don’t you either. Although if you are, in fact, a conservative republican, you really can bite me. Thank You, WTF
Being that I don't drink, I'd rather not meet in a tavern. Other than that...GO!
"It occurs to me as I read over this stuff that I sound like a preachy-assed know it all."
Well, Geeezzz. Don't start getting all apologetic on us now! LOL!
The skills are easy to see.
Okay, people, people...we need to connect. So, can we agree on a coffee house (you can't walk for falling over a dozen of them in this town)
....Let's vote:
Itty Bitty Buzz?
Bella Rosa?
Veela?
Blackbird?
....evenings work? Weekends?
My only question, where do you get carnations in this town? (I don't shop at Safeway, Walmart, or other chain stores, so aside from that...)
Aw how sweet... I can't wait to join your love fest.
Aw how sweet... I can't wait to join your love fest.
Oh, I think you’d be disappointed… It’s not like we’re planning on shooting senators and murdering children. I don’t think there’s a plan afoot to steal an election or line your pockets with public money. No racist comments about our Negro president. Although I’m sure you’re used to it, you’d be sitting around with people who are smarter than you. Naw, you’d just be bored.
"Okay, people, people...we need to connect."
Yes, but I do have some very silly, small concerns. I'm not sure how valid they are.
This blog can be viewed by anyone, and anyone can "don the red carnation" and show up.
Should we be concerned that those with the sole intentions of being disruptive might show up? Or, will they simply be asked to leave?
Also, we all operate under anonymity on this blog. The moment we show up somewhere, we lose that anonymity, potentially.
One idea is that we all adopt one identity, initially. For example, we all claim to be WTF? That way, no one really knows who the real "WTF?" is. Anonymity preserved for all.
Another idea is that everyone claim just to be blog lurkers, initially. Again, no one loses their anonymity. No one "confesses" to being a writer on the blog.
Another idea is that we claim to have been told of the meeting of "The Reason for Treason" by a friend of a friend, and have never actually seen this blog.
Later, as we get to know who we all are, we can drop the pretense.
I know this all sounds paranoid, and I apologize for vocalizing it. If we were not concerned at all, we would use our real names, to start with! But, I do think there are folks who are a bit uncomfortable with being "outted" by some crackpot who has nothing better to do with their lives.
Just some thoughts.
Yes, but I do have some very silly, small concerns. I'm not sure how valid they are.
No, I don’t think you’re being paranoid. 20 people were shot in a Safeway parking lot last week for doing what we’re contemplating. (Talking about democracy)
I have exactly the same concerns about “outing” and disruption. Fascists have always used threats and intimidation as their primary defense against opposition. These people are vicious and stupid. I would hate to see a friendly discussion turn into some sort of “incident”. It IS something to keep in mind.
I am however, willing to start where ever everybody feels comfortable and go from there. We really shouldn’t let our own concerns and a handful of Nazi shopkeepers dissuade us.
"I am however, willing to start where ever everybody feels comfortable and go from there. We really shouldn’t let our own concerns and a handful of Nazi shopkeepers dissuade us."
Thank you. Yes, I agree.
I continue to be interested in seeing what we might be able to do. It is inspiring to see thoughtful dialog. Such a sharp contrast from the mindless empty rhetoric that has been the standard for a while now.
We'll work out the details.
"RFT"
"Bite me" to the conservatives?
Well in that case, if your a liberal, screw off...
and enjoy paying your through the roof taxes, giving your money to the drug abusing low lifes and promoting what the liberals call a "flawless" wellfare system, promoting immigration, shooting down small business, and not to mention, (not just paying taxes) raising taxes!
^^A liberal at its finest^^
Let me know your done slamming people who create jobs and revenue so you can quit mooching off th govt.
Capitalist said...Nothing of value as usual...
Don't you have some crooked real estate deal or something to occupy your time?
I’ve been back through months of posts here and you never have anything to say. Not one damn thing. Same old tripe, same old impotent frustration. Your hand picked local political whores uniformly quit and run away or like Edna, Headrick, and Karen, crash and burn. You draw your talent from an ever dwindling pool of kooks, crazies, and real estate pimps and then wonder why you can’t get them elected. The wheel is slowly turning, gramps. And you’re being left behind.
The Capitalist said: "Well in that case, if your a liberal, screw off...
and enjoy paying your through the roof taxes, giving your money to the drug abusing low lifes and promoting what the liberals call a "flawless" wellfare system, promoting immigration, shooting down small business, and not to mention, (not just paying taxes) raising taxes!
^^A liberal at its finest^^
Let me know your done slamming people who create jobs and revenue so you can quit mooching off th govt."
Yeah, you go tell that to Sir Richard Branson. To U2's Bono.
These "liberals" run businesses you can't even think of. They pay more in taxes than some countries' entire GNP!
Grow up, look around, and get smart. The old, tired rhetoric is just boring. And, it doesn't help you look any smarter.
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