Elwha Dam Removal
Today's online PDN poll asks:
“The Elwha dams process has begun. In hindsight, do you think it's still a good idea to remove them and restore the river?”
As of this writing, with 750 votes in, the results are:
Yes — 44.5%
No — 21.3%
Never Did Favor It — 22.9%
Not Sure — 11.2%
“The Elwha dams process has begun. In hindsight, do you think it's still a good idea to remove them and restore the river?”
As of this writing, with 750 votes in, the results are:
Yes — 44.5%
No — 21.3%
Never Did Favor It — 22.9%
Not Sure — 11.2%
Labels: Elwha Dam
posted by Tom Harper at 7:10 PM
49 Comments:
Lots of red tape and government spending. I have never been in favor of dam removal.
Put new modern and efficient generators in them instead, and you would be amazed by how much power they can make.
The Dungeness River is in far worse shape with their salmon runs, and they don't have any dams. Its the nets across the rivers that has killed the salmon runs more than anything, followed closely by the nets at sea.
I did Lake Mills yesterday with a lady, figured I should before it is gone. It's a complex issue that we talked about some and there is no easy answers.
But it's going to be a done deal so we'll just have to see how it turns out.
Put new modern and efficient generators in them instead, and you would be amazed by how much power they can make.
I can't argue that point but back when they were built they should have insisted on fish ladders, or fish elevators.
But that didn't get done and later the taxpayers didn't want to pay for such so now the taxpayers are getting stuck with a much larger bill.
Will I miss Lake Mills? Na, been there, done that.
October sez:
"Lots of red tape and government spending."
I guess October was not around for the threads about how the "government" is the primary employer in the Port Angeles area.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Without the "government" and it's variety of agencies and projects, Port Angeles would dry up and blow away.
Not about the dam removal, but, I notice the piles of sawdust are back at PenPly, and the sawdust is blowing through the streets of downtown again. Was at an intersection earlier today, with clouds of sawdust swirling in the gusts of wind, halfway down First Street.
How do they get away with doing that?
Jeez, you people! You complain about there being no work in this town and then carp about an active workplace.
You want people to move here, but then it's only certain people you want to move here. The liberal, arty/enviro/aged-hippie types who will sip lattes, eat sushi and drive a Priuth. Yeah, those people are going to keep this town going. Uh huh!
Without an industrial base this town can't make it. I don't mind a little saw dust in the street if it means that working class jobs are created and a business is running.
Anyway, the Dear Leader, "Mania", seems to jobless. Why not hire him to sweep the streets?
I notice the piles of sawdust are back at PenPly, and the
As did i, when will it stop? Where's the EPA? Oh, probably harrassing Westport.
I'll be glad when Pen Ply goes out of business and we can get rid of that shit hole.
I don't want PenPly to close, but I got to admit, it's weird putting the industrial district so close to downtown. Then again, it's weird having the downtown as a separate little growth off the main traffic line, blocked in from growth by all kinds of things. And it's weird having the highway suddenly split with a smaller road connecting them. Whoever designed this place was smoking some pretty damn good stuff, I tell you! But, you gotta play the hand you're dealt and that includes taking the ports and industry right beside the downtown.
"I'll be glad when Pen Ply goes out of business and we can get rid of that shit hole."
Uh huh. Let's replace it with a sushi restaurant and an open space for yoga classes and a womyn's drumming circle and we'll all sing kumbayah and have a group hug.
Don't you feel better?
When a mill is propped up by government grants (handouts), deferred rent, and other means, it is most certainly NOT a "sucessful business" - it's a corporate welfare case. And, even with all the help, workers are still being furloughed. At least a sushi restaurant and a yoga studio would have to make it (or not) on their own, without the help of government handouts. And they wouldn't pollute. And they'd be something for both tourists and locals to enjoy. And they'd both be solid 20th century ideas in this 19th century town.
No! You don't understand, do you? Industry such as this is early twentieth century, resource raping, capitalist, anti-Gaia, colonialist, Patriarchal Oppression!
Industry such as this encourages uneducated rednecks to prosper and thrive and further encourages more of them to move here and breed.
Those of us with higher IQs and higher ideals are working to change things in Port Angeles to reflect the higher ideals to which we aspire. When we eliminate backward, destructive, Gaia-hating, Patriarchal "businesses" such as K-Ply and replace them with progressive, Gaia-friendly, co-operative endeavors we will all be better off and the rednecks can go to Grays Harbor and inter-marry.
I call on all womyn to join my partner Calendula WolfSpirit and I in silent protest at K-Ply this Friday. After the protest we will move to the estuary and bless the water and the rocks. This will be a womyn only event, so no male Patriarchal energy!
Blessed be!
Clothilde X. MoonFlower
Amazing that you think that anybody concerned about the ecomonic successes of the town as a whole, about industry that is not law abiding, and health impacts from these actions being passed to the taxpayer, are solely the concerns of "Liberals".
Why do you seem to immediately assume it is about "Liberals", and start with presumed insults?
Doesn't matter that I've been a self employed business person my entire life, creating jobs for many along the way.
So sad.
And people in Port Angeles wonder why this town stays a pass-through dump, while virtually every other place grows? Look at Sequim, and what has happened there over the last 8 years or so. During the recent "boom", what happened there, while storefront after storefront has remained vacant in Port Angeles. How long has the former Midas Muffler place been vacant, right next to that major anchor Wal-Mart, as an example?
Blame everything on those phantom "Liberals", if you wish. But I suggest you look long and hard in that mirror.
I reading the above comments, I think that the person that posted that suggestion for the Port Angeles slogan "Port Angeles- We're Stoopid and proud of it" sure hit the nail on the head.
PA Nerd said: "I don't want PenPly to close, but I got to admit, it's weird putting the industrial district so close to downtown."
You noticed in the recent articles about the various Rayonier/HarborWorks proposals that the Port of Port Angeles wants to continue with this kind of conflict generating land use planning. They expect to get waterfront properties for more industrial uses, if HarborWorks succeeds in purchasing the former mill site.
And McEntire is trumpeting his "fiscal responsibility" in wasting money on HarborWorks? And promoting these kinds of well understood land use conflicts?
What a world!
Hey! As long as McEntire is going to promote conflicting uses in the community, why not advocate for an adult bookstore to be placed next to kindergartens and other schools for the under aged? Why not have triple X movie theatres next to the churches in town?
How about noise generating industry located in residential areas? Oh, that is already done in Port Angeles.
And the reason for having a "Planning Department" is?
Take a look at Port Townsend- same post industrial economics, same out of the way location, etc. , yet PT thrives as PA rots…. What PT lacks is the conservative real estate politics that has been ruining PA for 30 years. Our local Republicans run only real estate oriented shills like Brooke, Larry, Cody, Gase, et al., their only goal, to steal as much as possible under the guise of “development”. Their short sighted profit only initiatives will ultimately kill any real development (which they will immediately blame on Max Mania, or some other liberal boogieman…
Sounds like many of you will be joining Clothilde and Calendula at the womyn-only silent protest of Industry this Friday.
PT isn't doing as well as you seem to think it is. I understand, though. PT is your hippie utopia but you can't afford to live there. Kumbayah!
"Sounds like many of you will be joining Clothilde and Calendula at the womyn-only silent protest of Industry this Friday."
Does ANYBODY know what this person is talking about? It sounds like pure gibberish to me.
"PT isn't doing as well as you seem to think it is. I understand, though. PT is your hippie utopia but you can't afford to live there. Kumbayah!"
Well, ok then, stupid, compare Seattle, Portland or San Francisco to any “conservative“ city of similar population. Spokane, Cincinnati , Cleveland, etc… You’ll see the liberals always do better. Better quality of life, economic climate,etc., however you want to measure it. Maybe if you guys could stop stealing from your respective communities, you could actually contribute something.
Oh, WTF, get over yourself.
You clearly have something against successful people who have the ability to hold down a job. In this case it's the local realtors.
Evil realtors! They're just like ex-Wall Street sharpies! Evil! Evil! E-VIL!!!
The solution, as I'm sure you see it, is to do away with private property (no private property, nothing to sell, no need for realtors = win-win-win, Comrade!). But until that day, Comrade, you'll just have to deal with realtors.
Oh, btw, I'm sure there are realtors in Portland, San Francisco and Seattle. I'm just saying is all ...
Like I said, PT is your hippie utopia but you can't afford to live there. (and I think you'd find realtors there, too!)
Who loves ya?
Anonymous 7:07
Listen idiot, I usually avoid income/ net worth discussions, but for your information, my VACATION home on the peninsula is worth more than your house. I've made hundreds of thousands in Real Estate, and expect to keep right on doing it. I'm smarter than you , richer than you, and no doubt better in bed.
I have no gripe about people who work hard, nor, obviously, do I have an issue with private property. But small time incompetent phonies like Piling, Williams, Gase, Rodgers, etc. are what's holding any meaningful economic development on the Peninsula back. Your asinine commentary won't change that fact.
Saw dust everywhere! Quick somene do something proactive about this saw dust menace ... like close the mill!
The Troll says "The solution, as I'm sure you see it, is to do away with private property (no private property, nothing to sell, no need for realtors = win-win-win, Comrade!). But until that day, Comrade, you'll just have to deal with realtors."
I notice this poor person makes all kinds of attempted insults at anyone and anything, but never actually answers the points they raise. Any response results in a flurry of what they think are insulting remarks about "liberals", "hippies" and whe all else fails, "Max Mania". Or some combination of all the above.
Others post replies with facts and realities. As an example, WTF posted the following " Take a look at Port Townsend- same post industrial economics, same out of the way location, etc. , yet PT thrives as PA rots…. What PT lacks is the conservative real estate politics that has been ruining PA for 30 years."
To which the Mindless Troll responds : "Sounds like many of you will be joining Clothilde and Calendula at the womyn-only silent protest of Industry this Friday.
PT isn't doing as well as you seem to think it is. I understand, though. PT is your hippie utopia but you can't afford to live there. Kumbayah!"
Hunh?
Yeah, that really makes sense.
This person is SUCH a waste of time. Nothing interesting here.
"Saw dust everywhere! Quick somene do something proactive about this saw dust menace ... like close the mill!"
I'm going to assume the comment is sarcastic, and the writer thinks Pen Ply should be allowed to impact everyone in the community with out consequences or question. Okay.
First, the fact is that it is against the law for a business to generate such off site impacts, and, I assume the writer is one that would encourage everyone to be a law abiding citizen, right? Or, do laws only apply to lowly individuals on a selective basis, and companies like Pen Ply are "above the law"?
Second, these impacts incurr costs to surrounding businesses, as they have to pay empolyees to take time to clean up after the dust settling on their shelves and merchandise. Repeatedly. I have seen first hand the volume of dust that accumulates on indoor surfaces, and it is beyond belief. Literally piles.
Third, there are health implications. Perhaps the writer is strong and healthy, and not affected. That's nice. But there are many, especially elderly, for whom such particulate matter is a serious health concern. The amount of particulate matter that can be released into the air by industry is regulated because of this.
Fourth. The dust and strong smells generated are a negative impact on all the other businesses and residents in the area. If one business can be allowed to have any negative impact it can generate upon the surrounding community, then why not all?
A pig farm would be acceptable right next to the writers' residence? A auto dismantling yard? A metal smelting facility?
No concerns about how such negative impacts, generated by a nearby industrial operation, would impact your property values, or ability to even sell you property so you could move away from the situation?
Do away with all regulation, and let business do what ever they want. We need the jobs. Right?
"I notice this poor person makes all kinds of attempted insults at anyone and anything..."
And also, if you disagree with this person, he or she starts making up all kinds of accusations against you usually on the far extreme. "Don't like dogs? You must be one of those liberal puppy killers! The city's full of them! Kumbayah!" Over and over and over again...
Put new modern and efficient generators in them instead, and you would be amazed by how much power they can make.
Actually, the dams and the lakes behind them are just too small to retrofit economically. (darn old physics !) The Elwah is a nice river, but it ain’t the Colombia or the Colorado. Once this myth is put to rest, the flat-earth types will start gassing about the silt that will be released. To which I would point out the Toutle River and the smaller water systems around Mt. St. Helens. All coming back quite nicely following a release of silt and detritus that would make the stuff behind the Elwah dam pale by comparison. I think most of the opposition to dam removal is coming from the same people who want to flush their constitutional rights down the toilet because they’re afraid of Mexicans. You know, the same folks who think stealing food out of poor kids mouths will balance the budget, or that if we simply kill enough Muslims they’ll come to love our way of life. We have wasted enough time trying to convince these morons , it’s time to get on with it.
I have it on good authority that Max is taking care of this sawdust menace. He was seen in Swain's buying a broom. Whether he actually uses it remains to be seen!
Oh say, all you "good government" types. Where you when the city spent 40,000 on all that "art" on Laurel Street? Where was the outrage on such a wasteful extrvagance?
I'll tell you where you were: fighting for first place to kiss his a$$, that's where.
Really, you complain about how "needless" and "wasteful" the Gateway is, how evil realtors, Harbor-Works and industry are. Yet you get all squawk-a-doodle over $40,000 spent on "art" and the Gateway is vastly better and safer than the creepy vacant lot on Oak Street. "Evil industry" employs people, but they're the "wrong people". You know, the sprint boat race, auto thrill show types. Why can't they just move out so that you all can meditate in the empty log yard?
BTW, if I'm such a "waste of time" why do you bother replying? This is a community forum and, despite what you all seem to think, not everyone in this town shares your ridiculous views or is a member of the "Mania" Cult.
Who loves ya? =)
"Actually, the dams and the lakes behind them are just too small to retrofit economically. (darn old physics !)"
There you go using common sense again. Don't you understand that has no place in our new, irrational, let's-go-to-the-extreme world? Please come back when you learn to scream "if you aren't for dam removal, you must be for eating babies! With ketchup!!" kthnxbi.
Oh, Max Mania is responsible for the Laurel St art? I did not know that. But I'd never heard of him until last year. I guess he's been behind the scenes all this time, manipulating us. Tell us, please, what else is he responsible for? Rayonier closing? The timber industry decline? The Vietnam War? Please please tell us!
That was sarcasm by the way.
And not everyone liked those Laurel Street statues. And just because someone thinks spending $14 million on a bus stop is a waste of money doesn't mean they hate private industry or want businesses to "just move out so that you all can meditate in the empty log yard" or are part of a "Mania cult". But you go on, keep thinking of ways to waste taxpayer money and accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being a baby-eating liberal.
Didn't Max pose for that "pregnant" statue? Oh come on! Laugh, it'll do you good!
I couldn't pass this one up:
"And they'd both be solid 20th century ideas in this 19th century town."
Hey, it's the 21st century. You might want to get a new calendar.
You know, I've re-thought my position on the Gateway Transit Center. I hate it. It's a waste of $14 million and I'm sure Kaj Ahlburg was behind it all. Rather than build that ugly monstrosity, we should have left it the gaping hole that it was. And they had the affrontery to build a two-tier parking garage as well. That evil Dan Gase was behind that scam! Or Larry or Karen or those evil Realtor Gangstas. Damn all these successful no-goodniks with their practical ideas! Really, that section of town should have been left a gaping hole in the ground!
Hey, has Max written a letter to Ecology about the Sawdust Menace? Did he get some talking points from his co-councilors Darlene and Norma? Have you noticed that there's absolutely no daylight between any of their ideas? It's like we got three for the price of one! Ain't that grand?
"BTW, if I'm such a "waste of time" why do you bother replying? This is a community forum and, despite what you all seem to think, not everyone in this town shares your ridiculous views or is a member of the "Mania" Cult."
Edna, you ARE a waste of time. Grow up.
I know this is a hot topic on this board, this "who is The Watcher?" guessing game that's been going on but I'll throw my two cents in.
The Watcher is the old gang, Larry, Edna and Karen. They all had enough insider information to drop all those tidbits of information. But, as time passed and they fell out of the loop, they had to pull the plug on this character they'd created. So they created another character to blame Max and then they, as "The Watcher", disappeared. That's why the posts stopped.
For what it's worth that's what I think. I know Max would never do anything like what he's been accused of. Shame on you all Larry, Karen, Edna and you too Kaj!
Hey, I can run to extremes too! I changed my mind about the border patrol! I won't even question if we need 50 officers drawing a salary on taxpayers money! They would all pay back to the community anyway, so let's shovel money over to them! In fact, it's such a great idea and we're so scared of something up here that I think there should be 500 officers here! Think of how much 500 hard working officers would put back to the community!
And the Gateway Center! True, it looks so much better than what was there, but I'm not going to question the $14 million spent on it. After all, it's just public funds! Plenty more where that came from. At least I hope so, because I think Port Angeles should pull eminent domain and purchase everything from Laird's Corner to Walmart! Finally it would have the power to clean this city up properly. Plus, every resident would become employees of the city. All those hard working residents would finally have enough to put back into their community! The growth rate would be phonemonal! And all for free! Free free free free free!!
Rather than build that ugly monstrosity, we should have left it the gaping hole that it was.
Actually, that “gaping hole” was the biggest piece of developable commercial real estate in the downtown area. You geniuses have assured that NOTHING will happen there for 50 years at least. And of course by blowing the JC Penny’s deal and replacing that retail space with the Welfare Office, you’ve taken care of that corner as well. Instead of using the Gottschalk’s space as a lure ( with subsidized tax and lease arrangements ) to a anchor store like Old Navy , these morons with no retail experience, will attempt to do it themselves. I can only assume you imbeciles actually work for the city of Silverdale.
BTW, if I'm such a "waste of time" why do you bother replying?
Well, because the only thing required for the triumph of evil is for good men (and women) to do nothing.
So you can rest assured that the minute you start with your lies and stupidity, there will be some good person here to ram it right back down your windpipe. I hope that clears things up for you, Dick.
Is no one going to comment on the speculation by Anonymous 8:18 am?
Is no one going to comment on the speculation by Anonymous 8:18 am?
1:47 PM, August 29, 2010
Nah, we all know it is Ednas' Dick speaking.
Sawdust! Sawdust! Sawdust!
There are several HUGE piles of sawdust-like material on the logyard of Pen-Ply!
I am shocked, shocked, shocked!
Close that place down immediately. It is, afterall, a large parcel of developable real estate and I'm sure someone can lure Old Navy to build a store there.
There are several HUGE piles of sawdust-like material on the logyard of Pen-Ply!
I am shocked, shocked, shocked!
Close that place down immediately. It is, afterall, a large parcel of developable real estate and I'm sure someone can lure Old Navy to build a store there.
Do the rest of you see how easy this is? Hit 'em with facts, apply a little pressure, and the conservative argument falls apart under the weight of its own stupidity. It's well past time to take the gloves off, kids.
What facts? What pressure?
Other than you'd rather have a delapidated hole in the ground and have a thing about people who work ... oh and you're against "industry" ... it's all alot of squawk-a-doodle!
But hey! Take the gloves off. Hit me with your best shot, "Mania" Zombie!
Who loves ya? =P
I just give thanks to God daily that we will never have to live under the Communism you "people" adhere to. Ask any Russian or Pole how much they like Communism and you'll get an honest answer. They're happy to be out from under the heel of that horrible system. If Communism is so good, why are millions of Chinese struggling to get out from under it now?
Your Socialism is a failed ystem and rightly cast on to the junk heap of history. Your plans to bring it here to this country will not succeed.
There are several people in this town who think now that they've got this clown on the council that they can turn this town Red. Won't happen!
As for you, WTF, you have absolutely no clue about what you're talking about. YOu adhere to the Party line from Red Central!
I just give thanks to God daily that we will never have to live under the Communism you "people" adhere to.
Yeah, right. God Bless America, there, Grandpa. Now, refuse your Commie social securty, and and dont drive on those socialist funded highways, and give back your commie public school education, and shit can all those power lines the commies put up, and on and on and on... Go read a book, why don'tcha?
Squawk-a-doodle Squadron Leader, are the gloves off yet? I mean, I can't tell, y'know?
Say, since you're such a valiant watchdog of the people's tax dollars, would you have spent 40k on that "art" on Laurel Street? I mean, hey, you're all over the Gateway as a waste of money (and we both know that the delapidated hole that was there was worth so much more), but I didn't see you squealing about the money spent on that "art"?
Were you first in line to kiss Bob's a$$? Yeah, probably you were ... and then you turned on Bob when he didn't support your precious Messiah, "Mania"!
Oh say, someone mentioned that the 2010 council left all these pwobwems for poor Maxy-waxy to deal with. That would include your lib heroes Cheri Kidd and Dan di Guilio, right? They were on the council in 2010, right? Are you guys gonna Whartonize them in the next election?
Perhaps you can get Darlene and Norma to run for office. But then they're unelectable given their wacko obsessions and agendas. Anyway, their wacko obsessions and agendas dovetail nicely with those of Comrade "Mania" and it's like we got three-for-one when the Dear Leader got "elected"! Max, Norma and Darlene, hey hey! They can pull his strings behind the scenes.
Are the gloves off yet? Don't blow your porch light, okay? Over and out, Squawk-a-doodle Squadron Leader.
And yet the only people I've talked to who actually want HarborWorks are right-wingers. I'm left-center and I think that the current owner should develop that land as they see fit. Republicans don't like that. They want the government (HarborWorks) to take over the property, using taxpayer dollars, so it can be developed. It's important because "jobs". Yeah, right! You think the only reason we don't have jobs is because we don't have that extra land? If Rayonier thought they could develop that land don't you think they would have done that by now? You think the only way to spur development is by a government takeover! You're all proud of yourself because the city seized some land and a spent a bunch of taxpayer money on a bus stop. It "looks better" now so it's worth it to put this country in that much more debt. I wonder why the government needs to be in the development business. And you call me a "commie" because I lean left? You people are contradicting yourselves all over the place. You don't even know what you believe!
I don't know why you even bother responding to Edna and her Dick.
Edna, if you REALLY cared about this community, you would pay a bit more attention to the "trends", realize you are not part of them, and not continually drag everyone else down with your mindless rantings. Yes, your endless rantings resulted in the Farmers' Market being driven out of the downtown for a while, but now they are back. Invited by the City when they realized the Market was a loss for the downtown.
It is easy to see the same approach being used against "Max", who you lost the election to, now.
Give us all a break, and GROW UP!
Anonymous 7:17 PM, August 31, 2010
Oh brother...well first of all, I've never been a supporter of that awful amature welding project on Laurel, but even if I were, you're comparing a 40k mistake to 1.5 million for Harborworks? 14million for the bus stop? C'mon, sad sack, you'll need to do better than that.
That's your argument?? The city spent $40,000 on those statues, so now the city has to spend millions after millions of taxpayer money buying up land for development instead of letting the private sector do it? And anyone who disagrees with spending millions (and disagrees with you) must have agreed with the art, "kissed Bob's butt" and must be a "Mania Zombie"? Throw in some cutesy lisping or baby talk and that's your entire argument. Amazing. Yeah I must be a Mania zombie socialist all right because I want a private company to develop their private land without government interference. All the good capitalists want the government to seize that property in the name of the state. Viva la revolution comrade!
“Squawk-a-doodle ” my god , your so vicious!
Actually, you sound like a mean old lady.
Well, like a mean, bitter old lady.
Uh, like a mean, bitter old lady with a really bad hairdo.
A mean, bitter old lady with a really bad hairdo who thought she’d be a shoo-in for election because her crooked friends on the council told her so.
Well, a mean, bitter old lady with a really bad hairdo who thought she’d be a shoo-in for election because her crooked friends on the council told her so that was defeated by a nobody with a funny name, who’s main qualification was that he’s not you.
I wasn't too sure about the art on Laurel Street at first. But I always see tourists taking pictures of themselves posing with this thing. And those pictures get uploaded to Flickr or Facebook or emailed or SMSed or just a boring slideshow in the living room. "Hey everyone! I'm in Port Angeles talking to a rusty pregnant lady!" The town's actually getting a lot of publicity out of those things. Whether it's good publicity or worth $40k is subjective, but it's there.
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